Author Topic: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game  (Read 4284 times)

Offline Cobalt

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Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« on: February 18, 2010, 05:10:26 PM »
The self-sabotage is phenomenal.

At this moment, three of the characters have gotten themselves written out of the campaign.  No one in their right mind is going to recruit Ina Kahn.  Duane Dearbone refused both the SMS and the NUNS, and did so using a lot of profanity.  And David Plissken just destroyed NUNS property in a room full of armed and armored Marines.  His action was sudden and violent and the Marines will react accordingly.  At the very least, he’s going to the brig.  At worst, he’s going to the brig with a skull fracture from the rifle butts across the back of his head.

So, after an MSN conversation with Mustang, this is what he has decided.

Brant is still in play.  Giti is still in play.  The other characters have essentially put themselves off the ship.  Do not pass go.  Do not collect $200.  A new thread is going to be started for Giti and Brant.  Giti has had her UN officers commission reactivated by NUNS.  Brant and Giti will continue in the new thread.

Dyson, jwylon1, and JJ (you will always be JJ to me) can continue with new characters that will be added to the game as they are completed and approved.  At this time, Ina Kahn, David Plissken, and Duane Dearbone are out of play.

If you have any questions, please feel free to post them here or contact Mustang via PM.

Offline Jet Jockey

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 06:56:59 PM »
Maybe there is a nice way to handle this.  Gonna try that.  I will be spending most of my time at work for the next few days.  If I seem short or blunt in the next few  post after this one it has more to do with the amount of time I have to post.  Not with my opinions of the people here.   I had fun meeting/working with them in the past and present.  Yes I this has been fun.

That being said.  I think we wanted two different games.   From my understanding this Game first had two separate teams.   One a run of the mill special force and the other a more covert special unit.   We had a change of setting and the groups were merged in two.  It was a big setting change but a interesting one to explore.  The tone of the game desired by the Game Masters and some of the players seem to be much more serious and darker than what some of us designed our characters for.   My character Ina was meant to be on the slightly silly side.   A girl who slept her way to be in the same squadron as you boyfriend.  Who she's very jealous about.   You can't expect her to be a model soldier that just isn't in her.   I have been playing her on setting number #11 because this game has been too confining.  There has been several railroading elements.  I found it more pleasing to act any frustration in character than out of character.   I asked myself how would a character like Ina handle this situation that she had no control over.  The more a NPC Authority Figure tried to control her the more out of control I let her become.  Armed guard everywhere.  I'll make her do what she can.  She wasn't allowed to see her obession (Yuu) the only way for her to gain control of her situation was to act up.  Some of us have pointed to MBS's Character different treatment.  Their character woke up to smiling faces.  Our to cold armed guards.  It set our characters to believe they are prisoners held against their will and among those who might harm them.   We acted up.   Only natural in such a setting.

As to be expected we would be recruited for the future force.   Problem is our characters had more reason not to trust them than to.   NPC were rather hard ass-hardliners who are basically ordering us to get with the program.  Ina got sent away for assaulting the Nurse and for demanding answers from Colonel Shaffer.   Pointing out that are more of them than him in the room.   Duane couldn't Command the English language that well.   That is a defining trait of JW1's character.   Many of things we were told in Character to stop were their defining traits of who they are.   None of us want to remold them into Perfect soldiers for a more super serious game.  The more we felt pressure to conform the more we wanted to unleash the characters.    These character grew on us.   Unsuitable for the visions of the Game Masters but we liked them.   Snake was removed from duty for throwing the Contract?  I don't think we want to play fall in line and take orders.  No such thing a player free will but a good game gives the illusion of one.   Things didn't feel like that.   Trying to make it the best out of hopeless situation was fun.

Once again another No Hard Feeling Reminder.  I have no desire to Continue on with a New Character to be Approved for this game.   Ina was already approved.   She and other characters fell in a New Setting with New Management and all of the sudden these characters became suitable for the Game.   Setting, tone was changed fine but as long we played the same characters it was the same game.   For us to change those characters was too much to ask.  Even on setting #4 Ina would have been written off by Shaffer.  Honestly I was looking forward to keep on playing.  It was fun.  Really felt we were in a different world.  I wanted to explore how they would get out of this mess.  I even liked Brant.   That character was perfect for this game.   Ours weren't but the conflict between us and him were gold.  There has been some really good playing going on here.   It might not have been what some may have wanted for this game but you had players having fun, in character, giving it their all.   Okay we weren't following the script but there was so much involvement.  That is so rare in PbP games.
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Offline Cobalt

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 07:45:28 PM »
In the spirit of no hard feelings, I'll put in my thoughts.

Assaulting nurses, making veiled or not so veiled threats, all the sillyness, it was fun in moderation.  Everything can be fun in moderation.

However, Duane chose to sit in a room with a Colonel and call him an asshole.  Sorry, I spent time in the military.  Doesn't fly.  Not in basic.  And not out of an officer.  I was in a unit with people from all over the country, including people that came from Compton, South LA, Georgia, Miami, Texas, Alabama, you name it.  One thing we learned quick, no slang.  We couldn't even use contractions.  Couldn't say ATM and had to say Automated Teller Machine.  So, did I expect him to change the whole character?  No.  Did I hope the character could, for a brief moment, behave like an officer and an adult?  Yes.

As for throwing the contract, Dyson posted that Snake smashed the contract against the wall, after shouting.  To smash something is to apply a great deal of force.  In a room full of armed Marines.  After members of the unit assaulted nurses, tried to fight off doctors, etc etc.  Doesn't fly in corporate, doesn't fly in the military, and, speaking from experience, do that in front of a Colonel with armed Marines behind you and you're in a world of hurt.

Again with the No Hard Feelings but I was hoping for at least some level of realism and professionalism out of characters that are in the military, even if it is anime based.

As for the future of the game, that is up to 'stang.  It's his deal.

Offline MustangGT02

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 08:04:55 PM »
As long as we are under the flag of "No hard feelings", I would like to express my point-of-view.

I was asked to help GM a game and I agreed.  I was glad that I was able to take over when Azazel left.  I really enjoyed rping with our original group but that too went by the wayside.  Some left and some was dropped for inactivity.  Cobalt has been a great help with making the transition from post SW1 to Post Frontier era.  I knew this was going to be a challenge for your characters to make the transition but I never expected this.  I love fun as much as the next, but I have some knowledge of how the military works and even in the imaginary, the behavior that the characters were displaying was very inappropriate.

I stand by the decision i made and I am sorry that you don't agree with the way I have ran this story.  I offered to put the characters back and let someone else take it from where they were but you all said that you wanted to keep going, so Cobalt and I went forward.  I had hoped that the characters would have fell in and we would have been farther along than we are.  But due to some characters lack of cooperation, we are forced to stop yet again.  I appreciate individuality but not when on duty.

So....it comes down to what everyone wants to do.  You tell me....

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Offline Dyson

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 09:12:54 PM »
No hard feelings guys!!!! I enjoyed it while it lasted.  :)

I will always mention the high ranking officer in Macross Plus during the celebration ceremony on Earth...the guy wearing sunglasses at night! Was he a blind man?? lol, that always made me laugh for some reason, for not knowing.


I am more curious as to how they will be written out...marine beat down, blanket party, shot, dumped from an airlock or maybe military tribunal to state their case, ya, I highly doubt that with this type of game, lol!!

Well, I definetly agree with Roy...the game became more and more serious and dark compared to how the game started. I just can't get passed Plissken throwing the contract, so he'll get whacked in the back of the head for it? I hate to see what happened to people who didn't pay their medical bill! LOL! Do any of the NPC characters have any sympathy for what the characters went through being so cut and dry?? And they all give that 1000 yard stare and chew super alloy like bubble gum. He's sitting in a chair and angry at the world and feeling cheated and neglected, and negated for the work he had done be pushed aside because it was not the same UN he once fought for.

Now my thoughts...

I felt as if the characters were just pawns in a novel...you can read it, but change how it is written, you get a slap on the wrist or a knife to the throat. This game sort of reminded me of Star Treks mirror universe the way everyone was acting. Sort of twisted and evil, hahaha.

I was really wanting to see how it unfolded, the world felt different which was cool and somehow real to play in but had too much communistic railroading riding alongside it like the whole 're-education' bit was just a small piece of it. The conflict with Brant was awesome, especially how Plissken acted at the end to him being all logical and what not, lol. But, we really don't want a game where if we don't do as we're told, we get punished for...I found myself confused at what would work best so Plissken would NOT get punished or beaten...but seriously, smashing the datapad with the contract loaded on it? Wouldn't it be the equivelant of a PDA?? That was the only violent action that Plissken has mustered since he woke up...he didnt attack the nurse, didnt attempt to fight Brant either...he harmed no one, just an inanimate object, lol. All of our character's anger and frustration is justifiable to a certain extent as to how they've been written and where they were placed. A common answer would have a psychologist evaluate them and counsel these people before just reenlisting them. It's like we came in this time period during some great war and everyone is on their toes and how it began that's how I took it, marine guards everywhere, people with their hand on their gun and etc., and a recruiter onboard, guards making threats and taunting weary soldiers who just appeared from a 30yr time displaced vortex, not like they just walked from one room to another...30yrs...10,950 days...that's a long walk. None of the GM NPC's negotiate or work things out logically, only by force or even sympathize for these characters. They were treated more like stray dogs, or worse, like get back on the horse sort of attitude. For instance Plissken being strong armed out of his temporary quarters. Why jump for joy to rejoin the NUNS, much less be forced to sit with a stranger. Why didn't he pay them a visit??? It's just common courtesy for what they went through.

And, technically how old would our characters be? Timeline old, or current physically old? Technically I think they would be too old to enlist if you went by the timeline.


Anyway, I enjoyed it while it lasted, I really did, but I'm not big on a heavy pushed game, seemed counterproductive to me and less freedom to do what our characters were written for. I hated to see it end up this way, but it was a game worth playing none the less!!! ^_^ Kudos to Mustang for stepping up after Azazel.

Be seeing you guys in a later or different game, but I will be sitting this one out as soon as Plissken is written out.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 09:30:15 PM by Dyson »
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Offline knight

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 10:32:22 PM »
Wow.  I had several different starts to this post, but "wow" sums them all up nicely. I'll be frank with all parties, simply because sugar coating has a way of getting sticky fast ;)

Yes, the game's management changed hands.  I expected a bit of headbutting during the transition, but nothing like this.  Granted, there were two different ways in which the PCs awoke which is covered partially in the aforementioned postings.  I can see the reasoning behind the difference of waking conditions, Giti was in a coma (due to my lack of accessibility) and the others were not.  I don't think I've ever heard of there being guards in an ICU, apart from perhaps a prison.  I also RPed her heavily wounded, she's still reclined on a stretcher currently.  It should also be noted that the GMs played the NPCs stating their intents.  In Cobalt's first GM post, one of the pilot-guards was very much worried about the time-displaced vets snapping - which some did.

Granted, all of the character responses were done very well, and they fit the individual characters perfectly.  However, my critique is that they spoke when they should have been quiet.  As example, I'll use Dyson from Macross Plus: when he's being dressed down by the base commander, he doesn't mouth off at him despite being the hotshot that Dyson is. The dramatic, emotional response is saved for after the meeting (punching the nameplate on the commander's door if I remember correctly?).  The same could be said for characters like Maverick in Top Gun, most of his mouthing off is to peer officers, not senior officers.

This isn't to say the GMs did everything perfectly.  Interviews with a psychiatrist would have been best, but I can understand wanting to skip that step in favor of getting the characters back into the cockpit of VFs.  I wouldn't have had a problem with posting through such a visit, it could have even been made a group session to speed things up.  But, frankly, the characters were designed around being VF pilots and I bet most of us players would have rather been in a VF shooting at stuff than RPing through a psychiatric session. ;) I don't think there's been a single bit of VF combat throughout this game's existence, so I can understand the desire to fast-forward as much as possible.

I don’t find the situation unsalvageable for anyone.  As far as I know, the NUNS rep will be aboard for quite a while.  It would be easy enough to have PCs come to terms with their newfound displacement and either reenlist or join the SMS.   That is my advice to the GMs, give the PCs that “cool down” time to ponder things over and, if the player still wants to continue, roll with it.  It wouldn't necessarily have to be RP'd out, either.  Once the game advances to M:Fs home (I assume we're all eventually ending up on the Vajra world?) the individual players can use said "cool down" and final decision as their intros for the new thread.  To hold onto the military standpoint, perhaps at a demoted rank – warrant officer or enlisted pilot, perhaps.  Wasn’t Princess a sergeant for a while in Macross Frontier?  All-in-all, I think this game has great potential.  Having the time-displaced pilots banding together, trying to figure out if the NUNS is the direct offsprign of the UNS or more akin to the Empire from Star Wars or the Imperium from Warhammer: 40,000 would offer quite a bit of multidimensional play.

I hope at least some of my peers stick around to find out.  :D
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Offline Dyson

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 10:54:02 PM »
I totally agree with MBS on this. And would've suggested the very thing...another fast forward. What's more or less poisoning the game is lingering around...like in the medical lab with the initial game restarting...lingering and waiting for the doctor and the captain to show up with all the answers and now we're just lingering around some more. It's more or less like loosen up the notch on the leash a little bit and give us players some room to be more creative instead of worrying about if any of our actions with have consequences. Plissken was actually taking time to cool down in his room and then the guards show up to threaten him if he doesnt come with them, or else. Fast forward mentioning therapy for each character and more understanding on behalf of the NUNS and SMS would definetely work quite well IMO. I have not seen Macross Frontier so I really have no idea how they act in that time period. I noticed how Nekoboy mentioned in OOC how the pilots and characters act in Macross though was really nice of him to do so. I believe the NPC's should reflect how the anime is portrayed to a certain degree.

The only one that would more than likely remain seperate would be Brant, he is who he is, but Plissken would eventually group with the others after awhile. Ina get to see Yuu, I don't see her creating more problems from an IC point of view, that's what started her tirade anyway. A players character makes simple wishes, they should be carried out, anything reasonable I think. I thought it was funny to lay claim to the Shinigami...now THAT was hilarious, lol. Also I forgot to elaborate on Plisskens action. I just assumed he left regardless of him yelling at him, and totally forgot about those marines, thought they were outside for some reason...too much to keep up with without reading back.

The Purple Foxes need their own AA-type meetings, lol!  :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline jwlyon1

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 02:19:50 AM »
I guess I liked Duane and thought he could have been good for the game. I don't know why the language thing became such a fixation. To me, it was a representation of one of his basic attributes, Education which was painfully low. Plus it made him unique. I understand in the real military it wouldn't fly, but we're playing in the Macross world where Idol singers are weapons, teenagers get bad ass weaponry. Really the Frontier world is just as silly as M7. Macross Plus seemed the most Serious (tm) and even then Isamu was a total rule breaker and still wasn't bashed by Marines all the time.

A PBP game is the result of the players and the GM. The players want to have the fun game they want, the GM(s) want the fun game they want. Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.

I do feel however, that the Foxes were given short shrift from the get go. We wake to armed bitchy guards. I thought I made it pretty clear in my initial posts that Duane's overt lewdness was a result of the drugs -- but it was fun was it not? And I guess if the language thing was an issue, and OOC or PM comment would have been nice, like, "yo! I get what you're doing, but could you tone it down??" to that I would have been like, "oh sure thing!". But when it happens IC, I try to stay IC, so if someone comes down with nothing but disrespect, well, that's all that person gets in return. To be honest, the more the NPC's insulted Duane and made cracks about his language, the more I poured it on. Juvenile, yes, I'll admit it. But I didn't really think it was that big a deal. Just having fun. Plus, I like to try out different scenarios in RPG, that's what it's for. Remember I also had the gay Marine CSI character. I'm neither gay nor a marine nor a scientist, but it was really fun getting into that character. Uncomfortable at times yes. Same with Duane. He was a street kid raised by foster parents who didn't really care. He wasn't educated. But he had chutzpa in spades, he got what he wanted by shear will power. So that's how I played him. He wasn't going to let someone talk trash about him. But he did shut the f-up when his commander told him to, even when it was pretty thin on logic. Why did the commander wake up and immediately trust these guys? If this was really as hardnosed and gritty indicated, no one would trust the SMS or NUNS. That's great RP opportunity though. How do the SMS and NUNS convince the PCs that they are in fact 30 years in the future?

As far as insulting the Colonel to his face, well, at that point it had been made pretty clear that Duane was no longer in the Military. If some one treated me like that in real life, I'd call them an asshole too, no matter what rank they had. But that's probably why I'm an art nerd and not a soldier/marine/sailor/airman*/coastie/etc, no respect for authority (hell, I don't even respect authority when I have it!). I like Macross for the art, the sci-fi coolness, some of the music and enjoyable characters and stories. It's never struck me as an overtly hard-nosed militaristic setting. None of the anime really reflect that, as far as I know. Hikaru, Isamu, the dudes in 7 (all of them!), all the kids in the SMS in Frontier. Really? That's tough as nails military? It sure as hell isn't real world, I'm sure we all can agree on that.

Frankly, the timeshift didn't bother me at all. I like the VFs in Frontier a lot and the SMS logo is totally awesome. What did bother me was the roadblock placed to every one of the actions the Foxes tried to take. Pretty much all three of our characters were railroaded, and when we continued to act "off script" it just spiraled. The tone shift wasn't as obvious, especially at first. I thought the whole chaos in the recovery room was hilarious and a lot of fun. Why not just move past that? But none of the NPCs did. It became all about how terrible the Foxes were and how unfit for duty. Wait a second, we weren't terrible before the timeshift, and Mustang did a great job GM'ing all the fun on the beach without the same crash and burn we had on the SMS ship.

See where we might get confused with the tone? We went from Beach Party to Generation Kill. Oh well, it's just a game. Hopefully we can all walk away having learned something. I don't need a new character. A little less on my plate is actually a good thing.

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Offline Jet Jockey

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 02:47:57 AM »
Hey I like Nurses.

About attacking the Nurse you can call it frustration from have no control over our characters.   Nurse Vivian injected Ina with out giving me a chance for to refuse.   Ina having figured out that Vivian did something promised to kick her ass.  Then the Nurse gave Ina sponge bath.  Yes Ina asked for a wash cloth but she was mad at the Nurse for putting her under.   Once again there no chance for her to refuse.   It was established that would have.  After having two things done to her in row without the ability to stop it I found it alright to do some equal pay back to the Nurse.

We awoke in a hospital.   It is normal us our characters to be confused, scared or paranoid.   They had plenty of questions but the Person with the all the Answers didn't come till much later.  Instead we were suppose to wait.  The Twins came across as cold blood killers ready to shoot anyone of us that tried to leave.   They act more act guards and we were prisoners.   Our Commanding Officer Graham was a very ineffective leader.   He was GM NPC but was weak.  The man who should be demanding answers had no backbone.  He feebly told everyone to just wait and comply.  That was more of the words of the GM than the Character.   Basically our task was to sit and wait.  That is how things felt.   Like we had no control and was just going for a ride.   We tried to do the only things we could do beside doing nothing.   We seemed like Prisoners let try to demand answers and escape.

This wasn't the first Character I lost remember Hord in the Cobras?  He was much closer to a model soldier.   Unfortunately for him he was suspicious about a Special Service Mission and called his family to tell they about his concerns.   He was shot dead by a sniper.  I got to continue playing on as his son.  It was a good minor plot but I get the feeling it is more easier than and now to silence or move characters away that don't fit in with the plan.   Players actions can be unpredictable as long as they aren't gonna set an orphanage on fire we should be willing to explore them doing the unexpected.   Players in my games throw monkey wreckage in my plans.  A beautiful plot over like that.  You can allow them to ruin things or make an attempt to get back on track
If the fix isn't a smooth and looks to overt you can try to adapt.  Make a couple of side stops, rewrite a few things and make it feel in everyone best interest to get back with the program.

Our Characters didn't act like Soldiers but as you guy had set it up we were no longer soldiers.   Adult maybe.   Even if they were Adult then they were adults that were told everything and everyone they knew was gone.   Instead of being shown compassion they got killer twins and hard case officers who demanded the proper military manners or they be written off.   Was Ina ever gonna get a chance to see Yuu?  If granted it would have been the one thing she demanded that would have calmed her down.  Imagine you are in car wreck with a love one and no would let you see them afterwards or tell you what is going on.  Would you act rational?  You'd be raising your voice and causing a fuss.   If the emergency staff told you to stop shouting you would be removed from the room you'd scream even more.  They would have to call the cops.   All other silly antics was just playing her on level #11.   None of our characters would have fit in the Corporate or Military World.   This is game of Anime military fantasy not real life.   We did take the fantasy elements too far.  It was a reaction to a tone that was getting too serious.

Okay that said thank everyone for all their hard work and contributions.   I gotta go to bed.

  
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Offline MustangGT02

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 08:27:21 AM »
I was reading your posts and I came to the conclusion that my story was not what you guys were looking for.  I asumed control of Azazel's game because I felt that the characters we had had potential.  I gave everyone the option to go forward or not and you all said go on.  So I did and I placed us in a time period that would allow me some freedom of story because 2028 was a time of rebuilding and nothing really happened. 

A few of you stated that the treatment of your characters made you want to be even more outlandish and it was your way of trying to get me to conform my story to your character's wants and needs.  So....if I was to play in one of your games and I suddenly didnt like the way the story was going or the way my character was being treated, that I could raise a fuss in game and act the fool and you would change it to suit me....I think not. 

So...my decision was made easy and I have decided to fold this game.  You guys seemed to be having fun under my lead but it got a little out of hand and I lost the fun.  Once that happened, it became a struggle to get my story moving.  Cobalt, i appreciate your assistance and all of your characters.  I have to say that I am disappointed that the game fell apart as it did.  I had a lot of good stuff planned.  Maybe I was a bit too ambitious or over-expectant.  If JJ isnt too ill with me, I may in the future try again with another game but i will have to see.

thanks again for giving me a shot.  See you around the boards or in other games.

~Stang

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Offline Cobalt

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 09:56:20 AM »
On a sidenote, I believe that the rank is still Airman.  On another sidenote, my father-in-laws badge (he was retired LAPD) said Policeman.  The new badges say Police Officer.

This is just a matter of good players, good GM, bad mix.  It happens.  No hard feelings.  If the tone of plot doesn't work with the characters, you either do a complete rewrite or you walk away.  Since it would be the second revamp in as many months, it is probably for the best that it just be shut down as a valiant effort.

Again, no hard feelings.

Offline jwlyon1

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 10:52:43 AM »
I think there was a lot of effort put in and a lot of good work. It just goes to show "luck" has a lot to do with these damned play by post games.
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Offline Dyson

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 11:11:05 AM »
Yes everyone put a lot of effort into the game, it just didn't work out that's all. Good game.
If mice could swim they would float with the tide and play with the fish; Down by the seaside, the cats on the shore would quickly agree.

Offline Jet Jockey

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 01:25:02 PM »
Who know what the future holds.  This was good learning lesson for all.   Despite thing not working out it wasn't for a lack of trying.   That is good trait to have for future games.  I think it taught us all the importance of right game for the right players and game masters.   It might wise for all our next games to not only make clear the posting expectations but the general tone of the game.  Even have such things be up for discussion among bringing a new group together besides what VF they want to fly.

I will be moving this stuff to the archives.   If any final OOC or IC wrap up is needed do it before early next week.
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Offline Dyson

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Re: Regarding the Next Phase of the Game
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 01:37:28 PM »
I wonder if having commander graham more active as in him being a peacekeeper or mediator wouldve helped the game. That type of role was essentially missing from what seemed to be needing. Clearly wto sides not getting along so you throw in someone who knows both sides and helps them to work things out.
If mice could swim they would float with the tide and play with the fish; Down by the seaside, the cats on the shore would quickly agree.